Well. Hello, everybody. Welcome back. Hard duck. Joel Kohn on reversing heart disease. Naturally. Some years three 2025. Thank you for being there. And I am actually really, truly excited.
I reached out to the very famous and experienced Doctor Michael Klapper, M. D. and shockingly, he said yes. He wants to talk with me about his many years, even decades of, advising people and observing how they do with plant based nutrition.
You probably know Doctor Klapper. He has a medical degree. He trained, University of Illinois and worked in Vancouver, and he’s actually back in that area now at a lifestyle clinic.
He’ll tell us about that in a minute. University of California, San Francisco. He can set your bone. He can deliver your baby. But he can also tell you how to eat beans over beef and, you know, worked actually, all the way to I think it was New Zealand or Australia.
I’ll have to New Zealand, in fact. And and many of us know him for, I think about nine years at the True North, Health Center in Santa Rosa with Alan Gold hammer and team.
But he’ll catch us up on where he is now because, it takes a map to find out we’re not your clappers. But thank you for being here, doc. Oh, absolutely.
Well, thank you for the invitation. There’s nothing more important at this point than educating our patients and the general public about the importance of mentally healthy eating.
But something there’s been no one mentioned to me in medical school near you that so many of these lethal progressive diseases, they’re actually reversible.
You can make them go away. The one told me, that you can melt away plaque in the arteries where the word where the description I got was. It’s relentlessly progressive.
No, nothing will will slow down the progression. But indeed, you and Doctor Esselstyn and others have clearly shown that a healthy diet and lifestyle, can actually melt this plaque away out of the arteries, and.
Oh, that’s revolutionary and very, very hopeful. So, a new era in medicine. I agree completely. And, I’ve heard someone named Michael Klapper is quoted as saying, practicing primary care medicine has taught me many things, but chief among them is that health and disease are not a matter of chance.
End of quote. And I believe, I nailed that. That’s, one of the many, bright things you’ve said. So tell us over the years and, you know, we could have half an hour on cancer and a half an hour, probably type two diabetes and, some, brain disease.
And, we should talk about those things, but let’s stick predominantly to the heart. But, you know, your your estimate of heart patients. How much do you think lifestyle and food as part of lifestyle contributes, to developing or resisting heart disease?
Oh, I would have to say it’s well over 90%. There’s surely a genetic component, in your, LP level, A values, etc., etc. but in general, if you raise a child on a diet of whole plant foods, lots of grains and beans and fruits and vegetables, have them outside playing in the sunshine every day and living a reasonably stress free life.
There’s no reason their arteries should clog up with this. After chronic plaque. Surely it’s a 20th century disease. It was first described, I mean, in 1904, Erica made the first description, worthless sclerosis.
Well, how about the thousands of years before that? Why weren’t we clogging up arteries, though? The royalty in many, society certainly did, but it certainly seems to be a giant of of of artery abuse.
If you if you want to injure your artery walls, eat a bunch of meat and dairy and oils and fried foods and sugars and processed chemicals, processed food, chemicals and.
Yeah, you’ll injure those artery walls, and their plaque will develop almost as the arteries response to the constant assault meal after meal, month after month, year after year.
So I think diet and lifestyle are by far the, the main driving force of the disease that kills half of all Americans. But again, they’re the worst kept desk, unfortunately kept it all secret is that this disease can be moved back the other direction.
Yeah, yeah. Me if meal after meal, there’s vegetable soups and salads and steamed veggies and all the grains and beans and, fruits, etc.. And you stop those energetic foods, as the months go by in that high flow, the bloodstream, washes over those plaques.
Eventually the plaques, begin to melt away, the arteries open up, angina goes away or something. And I also, I was told, never happens. And, and you see, this is a reversible disease, and it’s the most hopeful.
The message in medicine, along with fact that type two diabetes is reversible, obesity is reversible, and many autoimmune diseases are reversible. So it’s, you know, re is let us recalibrate the entire year viewing of health and disease here.
And I hear a cynical professor med school who’s, basically, you know, your patients, they don’t get diseases, they earn them, you know, meal after meal, you know, argument after argument and sleepless night after sleepless night and cigarets after cigaret.
You earn your disease there. Well, the good news is you can earn good health, because so much of this is reversible, so hopeful. Time to be practicing medicine.
If I may, I ask you, you’re a senior physician. How many years you’ve been in practice? How many of them have been lifestyle and plant based, lifestyle oriented?
I graduated in 1972. Do the math. Is about 43 years ago now. And some 42 years ago. No, 52 years ago. So my math was never very strong. 553 I’ve been in family doc over five decades.
And the first half of it was blood and guts medicine, emergency rooms, general practice offices, etc.. But halfway through my career, joined the staff at True Life Health Center in Santa Rosa, California, and saw the power of a whole food plant based diet to reverse these diseases.
I saw things I never thought I would see. And then, we’re in medical school. We get these dogmatic statements, high blood pressure patients. One day, you know, you they will take these pills the rest of their life.
It’s a lifetime. Medication will not only as these people get leaner and the arteries open up on a plant based diet, and their blood pressure comes down, not only can you get them off your medication, you gotta get them through medication.
They’ll stand up and their blood goes down to their legs will pass out on you. And the same thing with the type two diabetes patients. One’s on insulin, always on his.
You know, he gets off insulin. Well, they get leaner. Their blood, their insulin receptors open up there. In the instance that insulin they do make works fine.
And their blood sugars come down. And not only can you get the patients of insulin, you have to get them off because, their blood sugars will get dangerously low.
And the first halfway through my career at True North, the first time I said those fateful words which I was told never to say to, high blood pressure patients, stop your blood pressure medication, and, you don’t have the disease anymore.
And the diabetes patients stop your insulin. Soon as I said those words, I looked around to see if there be a puff of smoke and that goes to my internal medicine professors and say, what did you say after insulin was handed your stethoscope?
You’re not a real doctor. But of course, you know that that’s exactly what happened. And good medicine requires the, the, and the lifestyle medicine. We have we’re forced to learn this wonderful craft called deep prescribing.
How do you get people off medications? No knowing, no emotional skill either in medical school. But now it’s routine. Should be the goal of both the patient and the doctor.
How to get rid of your diabetes. And let’s get rid of your hypertension. We can do this if we work together. And and you and we make wise choices at the dinner table.
You know, off these medications. What a hopeful message that is. So many of our colleagues are so discouraged about their patients. The, the cardiologists primary care, their my patients are all getting fatter and sicker, all white, you know, with a heart attack.
Yes, doctor, if you don’t talk to me about what they’re eating, that’s what you’re going to see. But it doesn’t have to be like that. This wonderful plant based diet is the key to, actually reversing these these diseases. Again, it’s fun to be a doctor.
Disease patients get healthy is a dream come true. Stuff. Well, that’s a powerful answer. And thank you. Now, I’m curious because you’ve had that, eight and nine year run at True North Health Center.
And probably most of people listening or watching this discussion are familiar. That’s a place where if you’re healthy enough, you’re going to start with, supervised water fasting.
And if you can stay long enough, transition to more observation with a whole food plant based diet. And, yeah, you might well leave. They’re off all your medication.
You’re in the clinic now. Not everybody can get to a supervised water fasting spot, and we don’t usually urge people to do prolonged water fasting at home unless it is medically supervised, which most physicians aren’t really prepared to supervise.
In your current clinic, do you have the option of starting with water fasting? Supervised in the clinic, supervised in a hotel supervisor home? Or do you predominantly, like most of us plant based clinicians?
Just try and fix the food within the house situation and skip past water fasting? And is that as effective? That’s just pick. High blood pressure is such a frequent problem.
Oh. Of that’s a very perceptive question. Let me answer it as concisely as I can. I know work, at the Oro Lifestyle Medicine Clinic in Victoria, British Columbia.
A roka is a Sanskrit word. Roka is a blemish, is an illness. So a roka is without blemish, without, you know, it’s spotless. Good health. And, and they know the importance of plant based diets.
And at a roka, patients come in there, they see the staff doctor, and the next stop is with the plant based dietitian, who’s on the treatment care team, the primary care team.
And she or he designs a dietary program, based on whole plant foods. And the patients followed up and by surprise, they get leaner and healthier. Now, since I, when I joined the staff there, and they were aware of my reputation as your doctor.
Clapper, would you be willing to start a fasting program and add that component, to our lifestyle medicine program? Well, absolutely. I, I’m thrilled to do that.
And we’re starting to gear that up. Because now it’s become evident, when I was first at True North back in 2009, the, nobody can fast at home. It’s not safe.
But now we know that that’s not true. If you do baseline blood tests beforehand and then just the basic blood count, a CBC in a metabolic profile to verify they’ve got good liver and kidney function.
If they’ve got if their kidney and liver function is normal, there’s no anemia or infection. The vast majority of folks can do that. They can do a, certainly a three day fasting home, but a five that most folks can do a five day water fast at home.
But again, it’s up to the doctor to to do a zoom call, checking on them every day. Make sure you’re doing okay, not showing any symptoms of of problems.
And so yes, we we can incorporate a fast beforehand and then it’s going can be very effective for dropping the high blood pressures, cooling off inflamed joints.
I helping asthmatic folks breathe easier. But, you know, I used to wear a t shirt at True North sometimes, because people are so focused on the effects of the fast, which can be very dramatic, but they like to teachers who is not the fast.
It’s what you eat after the fast is the most important thing. You can get these dramatic improvements out of water fast. And then and then we employ that as a jumping off place to to get the body on the right track.
But again, it’s the food stream day after day, week after week, month after month, pouring through your tissues like like Doctor Colin Campbell wrote in his book Whole Wheat.
Usually it’s the Whole Foods stream. All those plant based foods interacting with each other, with all their phytonutrients that that suit the tissues, that clean out the arteries, that calm down inflammation.
Yeah, it’s the whole food stream over time that really creates the long term healing. So the fast is a there’s a springboard. But the important thing is what you eat after the fast on on a daily basis.
And in such an important part of lifestyle medicine is education is teaching the patient. And so that’s why the dietician is so important. The food coach is so important.
Then you got to make it happen in their real life. You can’t just do a one time drive by lecture and think they’re going to change their life. Sometimes they do, but it really takes a team and ongoing support to help take people by the end and help them make this change, which to many of them is very, very foreign, especially if the family members at home are familiar with what they’re doing.
But it’s all doable, you know, just food, food and love and some good teaching. Go a long way towards helping people make these changes. So I did have the opportunity to have a wonderful interview with chef AJ, who also spends time at True North and now lives pretty close to there.
Right. And she used the term that most people listening to this watching us know, know S. O. S diet. So not only Whole Foods of Planet Origin, but, eliminating salt, oil and sugars.
Do you find that version? Some people might call that a little more challenging, but with, you know, I unlimited number of YouTube recipes that she offers and many other sources, is that, in your view, the most therapeutic approach when this patient at a Rogan goes and talks to the plant based dietitian.
Oh, you ask these wonderful questions. And if the if we can summon up the, spirit of doctor and goal hammer, the, chief of, of the true North, you say?
Absolutely. We need no extra salts, and it’s it raises your blood pressure and opens the door to auto immune disease. You sure don’t need sugar in ages.
Your tissue creating all these advanced glycation end products and oils are damaging to the arteries. Or they’re just liquid fat in the bottle. Nobody needs extra salt, certainly sugar or oil on the food.
And it’s true of the food stream is free of all those. The the food stream creates its most potent effects, no doubt. And so they’re certainly the ideal.
And if I’ve got a patient with runaway lupus or runaway high blood pressure, you bet they don’t need extra salt and sugar and oil on their foods. And we certainly would restrict that.
The patients who are just getting into the, the program, here’s the spirit of John McDougall saying, listen, if the food doesn’t taste great and they’re not going to eat, it doesn’t matter.
You’re and and so he would be a little liberal, willing a few grains of salt on the veggies. The corn on the cob there, if it helps them enjoy it more on the mashed potatoes, if a tiny little bit, is not going to hurt.
And, a tiny little bit of sugar in your tea is not going to hurt him. And it makes the food more joyful and people are more likely to adhere to it and in tiny amounts, I believe.
I agree with doctor McDougall. You know, literally a pinch of salt on the surface of the veggies. Now, when those salt crystals hit your tongue on the corn on the cob or the says, you get a big salty flavor, hit with it with that very little sodium and so on.
And that used to, I think is appropriate. And the same with the sugar. You need very little of these, potent sweeteners here. So, but I have no use for oil, so I really think they are damaging to the arteries.
And, and once you stop using oil, your taste buds change. And, my wife and I are at the point, we were out for for dinner. For dinner and and their side dish and sauteed veggies and.
Oh, great. But they were selected oil, and they came. It was dripping with oil. We couldn’t eat it. It was just, it just is not pleasant anymore. So everybody can do without their oil.
Stir fry your food and vegetable broth or whatever your veggies. But a little bit soluble sugar if it helps people make their transition. We have no problem with that aroma.
And, and, and I think in general, hard to make a case that it’s, that’s a great detriment to health. All right. So talk to you. You mentioned, a couple minutes ago about, you know, you were taught that angina, classic warning sign of poor blood flow to the heart.
A pressure, a tightness, a choking on exertion goes away quickly. When you stop, you weren’t taught that. That could be relieved without bypass and standing between true north, your previous years and now this experience.
You’ve seen patients, you know, literally avoid stents and bypass. There’s people watching, listening, you know, that are contemplating that same path you have.
You know, any concept, or a patient in mind or just. Yes, I’ve seen it. Oh, I have certainly seen it’s been some of the most gratifying moments in my medical career.
These arteries were all choked down. And the person who walks quickly goes up a hill, and the heart muscles demanding more blood. And these choke down arteries can’t deliver it.
And so acids build up in the heart muscle and oxygen levels fall, and you get this god awful feeling. It’s, and not only is it painful, but I’ve heard patients say dying.
It feels like the hand of death is grabbed my heart. Or, you know, this is going to be my death and your feelings of impending doom. It’s a dreadful condition, a will.
A couple of good things happen on a whole food plant based diet. As we mentioned, the plaques can then start, start to get a little smaller, and there’s a little opening up of the of the obstruction of the artery, but also the arteries getting healthier.
We encourage folks to eat lots of dark green leafy vegetables. That’s going to increase the production of nitric oxide in the artery in the wall muscle, the arteries, muscular wall.
And so that’ll let the arteries relax just a little bit. And between the the melting away of the plaque a little bit and the relaxation of the arteries dilating it a little bit, we get to take advantage of this wonderful law in physics.
This law, that says just a little increase in the diameter of a pipe means a big increase in the flow of liquid going through that. But then we all know if you’re trying to suck juice up through a tiny straw, there a straw twice the diameter, will we get a lot more?
A lot more juice going up there. There’s Priscilla’s law. The blood flow will increase by the fourth power, the increase of the radius. But just a little bit of dilation, means a big increase.
Well, that’s what makes the angina go away. And it just enough to, to get that blood flow into the heart muscle where it needs it. It doesn’t take that long.
We had a patient of true north where he was a physiotherapist up in, up in the Sierras, in a hospital in the Sierras. And, Oh, he couldn’t walk across the courtyard without heavy stuff, with the look on his face and taking nitroglycerin.
And he stayed at the hospital for, he said, a true north for a few weeks. But by the third week. And he really purely knows all the sugar oil. And by the third week, he and I were walking around the courtyard with no angina.
And so we went outside. We went around the block and, realized he could walk with four blocks. There was no angina, man. We had the best hug. And actually, I wonder what a great victory that was.
And so many patients follow that same, that same path. So, it’s a reversible disease. Again, I, you know, I wish, my professors in med school taught me that.
And a few years ago, I was when I realized how reversible these conditions are on plant based diets, I think, you know, somebody should go to the medical schools and tell the medical students this long before farmaco sclerosis sets into their brains, and, and the little voice on my shoulder says, how about you, doc?
And, so so we established a nonprofit organization, Moving Medicine Forward. And for the past almost four years now, I’ve been going to the nation’s medical schools and giving a lecture on what I wish I learned in medical school about nutrition, where I go through the mechanisms.
Here’s how it reverses angina, here’s how it reverses type two diabetes. And and putting these understandings in these young students heads. So when they get out in practice and they get frustrated that all their patients are getting worse, oh.
You know this doctor, but by then, there’s, there’s so much more literature now validating. It’s hard to open a medical journal without seeing some article on how a plant based diet improves disease. Z.
So by then, and they’re going to run into more and more plant based colleagues. But I’m trying to plant that seed. Ring the bell. You can’t unring the bell.
You know, once they hear it, they’ve heard it. And, so we’ve been getting great feedback from the students. And I tell them, you know, and as a second and third year med student, you want to get those medical powers, you know, you want to learn how to use diuretics to make get a team and go away and how to use antibiotics, how to make that pneumonia go away.
I tell them, the plant is the most powerful tool you will ever wield in your therapeutic armamentarium because it actually reverses these diseases. You want to reverse diabetes or reverse high blood pressure well, and be able to lean across your desk and tell your hypertension patients like you get rid of your pills. I like to get rid of your hypertension.
Let’s work together and make that happen. Well, hopefully to practice medicine. And so, people like to find out what we’re doing. Our website is moving mid forward.org.
Moving forward.org. Then you can see I’m doing an East Coast tour now that I’m speaking at Harvard and Yale and Brown, and UMass, and Suny New York, in early November there.
I’ll have our schedule on the website. Anybody wants to come to our lectures, you can do that. I’ve got, even a blog there that’s so fantastic because, you know, there’s been a lot of discussion, in the last 12 months about, you know, some people, God hashtag make America healthy again.
But, you know, getting to the root cause, the food, the quality, the food, and a lot of it is focused on, pesticides and plastics and, antibiotics and food.
And, of course, we need a whole food plant based diet. You’re probably getting a cleaner source. Maybe not perfect, but cleaner. But there hasn’t been enough conversation that that also should be a whole food plant based slant, approach.
And, you know, unless we get to the medical students, it’ll take generations to really see doctor office care. Turn around. So yeah, I applaud what you just done now, but everybody does check their website.
Let me ask you about one other condition. The, angina pain below the waist line, the erectile dysfunction. And again, we’ve got a senior clinician here.
How hopeful can you turn to a guy that’s either having, you know, mixed success with Viagra or Cialis? No, success. Hasn’t tried the medicines. And tell him, you know, it’s the food.
And maybe in a month or two, we can restore your power that, you know, you used to have. What’s your experience for that? Well, my experiences, similar to yours, you did, in your detailed questioning there.
Bring up some important points. We’re talking about whether clogging of the arteries going to the male penis there. I know female band, is, the main force behind the man’s inability to, either get or maintain an erection.
And we have to understand again. Whistles love. It plays a role here because the penile arteries, they’re kind of small arteries to begin with. The length of the diameter of a strand of spaghetti.
And the inner lining of the inner channel is already small to begin with. So any little clogging, they all spasm that our is really going to choke down.
That blood flow and, and prevent the erectile function from happening there. And so not surprising that, as the member atherosclerotic clogging the arteries, it’s a total body disease.
The plaque is laid down everywhere. And the rattlers and the, and the renal areas of the kidneys, the femoral artery to the legs. And of course, it’s going to, affect the, the general arteries as well.
But, because they’re small arteries, it shows up in a very dramatic fashion there. The, the and also there’s other factors as well when it, when, if the guy has he starting to take up the arteries.
So he’s choking down the blood flow to begin with. When you eat a fatty meal, you eat a cheeseburger and a milkshake. All the saturated fat in the beef, the butterfat and the cheese, the egg yolk and the mayonnaise.
But all this saturated fat gives out in the bloodstream, coats the red blood cells. They start sticking together. The the blood becomes more viscous, physically thicker.
They’re after a classic meat and dairy based meal. Well, now you’re trying to force thick blood through a choke down the artery. Will, that’s going to really, choke down the the blood flow in and reduce, erectile, function.
So, so the order of the day is, it’s the food. It’s the food is the start there. So one thing, you know, before you go into, into some heavy pharmacology or surgery, there, start with the food, because you mentioned another issue there when the Viagra or the, or the, cialis doesn’t work.
If the, if I’m going to say this does work, but in general, without them, the guy has a hard time getting erection, then you gotta look at the, the the dynamics of the relationship and the level of of excitement with your partner or things like that.
If the if the, if the, if the chemicals can really make the, the penis quite erect there. But if those don’t work anymore, then you gotta assume that there’s a mechanical issue here and that the those blood vessels are choked down.
Well, you know, I’m more concerned again about the presence of coronary arteries or renal arteries, etc.. And so we get them on this plaque reversing diet.
And often there’s a sheepish, piece at the end of of a visit. By the way, doc, my wife says, I’m a lot better in bed these days. And, yes, that’s absolutely to be expected.
Isn’t that life’s way of giving you an a better boy? I live in the back of the shoulders there for, for maintaining a healthy diet. It’s one of the pluses that comes. So. Yes.
Erectile dysfunction on the basis of vascular insufficiency. That also is reversible. Thank heavens. And many guys experienced that. Fantastic. I mean, exciting, exciting, exciting because people need to believe that, you know, so many different clinicians are starting to see these improvements now.
You have a great website Doctor klapper.com. But that’s spelled out doc k t o r Clapper uh.com doctor clapper.com and the moving medicine forward program as a link as well as other resources.
Where this clinic people is it telemedicine or. It’s all. In telemedicine. And, we do see patients here at the brick and mortar clinic there, but I’m there.
I’m the director of telemedicine there. So, the, Canadian medical, service pays for that. I’m going to be doing private consultations. You want to go?
Some people want to go to my website. I still have a California license. And, Hawaii license, and I can do I can do telemedicine consultations in the States as well.
So if anyone wants to contact me, go to my website that you mentioned there. I’d be happy to do that. I think, as I told you, I just got off, telemedicine call with somebody in Nova Scotia, and I’m gonna quickly send your website and, Or would they better be going to the.
A go to the Aruba doc. Rogan.com are og a rogan.com. And because there’s a Rogan clinic in Brampton, Ontario, they’re, I think they’re starting. They want to open up Nova Scotia as well.
So I go to the Oracle website and, I enjoy your chapter there. Wonderful. So we, want people to know where to find you and, follow up. Very, very good. And, another book in your future.
Not right now. Yes. I’m working on a book called Moving Medicine Forward, and, and it’s talking to the medical students. Here’s what you should have learned in medical school and to the public.
Here’s what your doctor should know. And, and, how you can, hopefully not even need their services. You know, I want my patients to be so healthy, I don’t I want to see you in two places.
I want to see you, in the health food store, buying your tofu, and on the bike paths where I waved to you as we passed each other as we please. I want to see you. Yeah, but with a wink.
You know, if they need to see me, of course I’ll be glad to help. But basically, I want to get people so healthy. You don’t need to see me professionally. Go live your life.
Don’t be a medical patient. All right? So what a wonderful, wonderful way to kind of close out this fascinating interview with, again, such an experience.
You know, again, I love the fact you’ve seen both sides of the medical world as I have. You’ve had a traditional career and you’ve had a lifestyle plant based career.
And, I don’t think you’re going back to writing, antibiotic and, acid blocking prescriptions unless they’re absolutely mandatory. So I’ve learned a lot.
I thank you for your time and your love and God, this medical school education program is literally, the most optimistic thing we’ll ever hear about. Thank you, Joe, for the opportunity to share this wonderful information with your viewers. You’re doing a great job there.
Keep shining the light. All right. Thank you.
